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Post by Percival on Nov 26, 2009 12:26:53 GMT -5
Frist of al i want to invite all meaningful discussion and debate on the upcoming Gates. I would like to stear all comments and questions raised from the changes so that the main thread does not get weighted down and the need to know updates are still easly found on that main page. With that said that is not a blank check to run a muck. Keep it clean and productive. Mods please feel free to act swiftly if this thread get out of hand
Frist as reguards to the crackdown to the underage drinking. As much as i am a self responiblity type, that does not like to see lots of rules and laws the enforce morals andpersonal actions. I would rather put control in the indivuals hands and let themy self govren as much as possible. In this case inaction and reminders will not cut it. Any hampering of fun these rules make is outweight by the danger that underage drinking left unchecked puts us all in. There is personal risks to the underage drinker both phyical safety and Leagal issues. And on a larger Scale if there is underage drinking that is found out about in the mudane world that puts all of us in danger of losing or events and maybe or past time. It is time to crack down on the underage drinking and DUS is right to do so. And not to be a kill joy for those under 21 that like to drink, but of the great good both of the underage would be drinker and us all
Second on to the Minors atending. Just so we are clear this si where I jump of the band wagon. I am with the underage drinking crackdown but demanding parents attend with there 16 and 17 yr olds, I am not complety down with. I am capeable of understanding the reasons behind it but i too ask is there nothing that can be done, was there a middle ground here. A middle step between 16 and 17 are able to come and fight with wavier to 16 and 17 yr old needing a parent to attend. Like I said before I am not for a bunch rules and restictions in genral but i would rather see 16 and 17 yr old with big black X's on there hands or have to stay in dry camps and possibly (hate to say it) but camp curfews for them then saying no parent no entry. Please Minors do not read this and think Percivals want to Opress me and and treat me less then human. I only offer these option rather than lose the high School crowd. the are the future of the sport. And it is not like if 16 or 17 yr old is not able to go to dag events they can't Larp. Boffer sword finghting is growing we are not the only game it town. We they can't go to a dag event perhaps they will find or make a group that they can go fight at. that does not mean i think we should turn a blind eye and let them do whatever just so do not lose them. Thats is no wa to operate. I would rather lose people then giving them blank checks within personal action. I know this is easier said than done but could their be a seprate camp away for all the party camps just for all the 16 and 17 yr olds with 1 to 3 voluntry adults to watch over the campout. I know know how bad and opressive that sounds. But like before I would rather opress than exclude. I might regret this later but if i offer to host a camp back by the lake (away from Lyonesse) for 16 and 17 yr olds with out parents just so they can be there, I know sperating them from their camp seem wrong, but if they can't camp at all. thats is just a camp. I am 31 and threw the hard drinking years of my life, and if i may so myself known some what well and i think trusted. It is just a thought I want to throw out there
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Velia
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Post by Velia on Nov 26, 2009 14:08:34 GMT -5
I would help run a camp like that or at least be willing to supervise
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Squire Nox
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Post by Squire Nox on Nov 26, 2009 14:35:27 GMT -5
**Note: What I’m about to say is very likely going to be corrected by someone who knows more, so only take this as loose advice**
In regards to having a parent on site with their kids, we actually discussed the problems with getting parents to show up at the last council meeting. One of the ideas that was brought up was to have an “alternate legal guardian” waiver that must be signed by the parent, that if they were not going to be attending the event themselves, putting someone else who would be attending as legal guardian of the underage person. I believe that Krystal mentioned something at the meeting about Rag being handled in a similar way this year, due to the change of location. Pain in the butt to get another waiver signed and notarized? Yeah, maybe a bit, but it just becomes another layer of protection to ensure that everyone is going to have a safe and awesome event.
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Lady Anu
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Post by Lady Anu on Nov 26, 2009 15:01:33 GMT -5
A question, if you will? Would having a parent or legal guardian providing (along with the notarized waiver for attendance) a companion paper (also notarized) giving a group leader temporary responsibly for the minor be permissible in allowing a minor to attend with out "a parent or legal guardian"? In essence, the group leader would become a legal guardian for the minor. We have done this sort of paperwork for our church and not found any problems so far with this arrangement. It also provides a "back-up" to the emergency contact number when a minor has something happen and the contact can't be reached.
Just thought I would ask, as several in our group have younger siblings that also fight and won't be able to attend if the younger sibling can not attend as well. Most of the parents of our fighters would feel it is not right that only one of their kids be allowed to go and not both, just because one hasn't had their 18th birthday yet.
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Orrin None-son
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Post by Orrin None-son on Nov 26, 2009 15:07:46 GMT -5
I am going to say somethign that will probably be insulting to DUS, but I gotta say, at every event I have seen/heard/read someone say DUS is strict on thier underage drinking rules. I have NEVER seen someone get into trouble for supplying or being a drinking minor, at a DUS event. And I don't just mean in AOM camp.
Tht being said, both the two major changes seem pretty major. I think BOTH are striong changes that might solve the issue. But to do both changes at once is too much. I say try one, then if it does not change things, add the other at War.
Don;t go from nothing to all out... it is to much at once, and probably un-nessacary
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Post by Percival on Nov 26, 2009 15:30:51 GMT -5
[quote author=nox board=plaza thread=1448 post=16546 time=1259264127. I believe that Krystal mentioned something at the meeting about Rag being handled in a similar way this year, due to the change of location. [/quote]
As far as rag goes i do not think even temp guardianship works. But I want to point why Rag is changing, The landowners say it has to be that way (not DBGA or RWC) and that comes from PA states laws. and the Cooper's lake people making sure they 're within those states laws. So i hope that it is understood thats why Rag has changed and not because Dagorhir as a whole changed their polices. Not so say there is no important Dag people that would not want it or that it does not help at all .I just hope there was not the "well if Rag is doing it" logic emplyed, cuz PA and MO do not have the same laws. So a straight apples to apple logic does not work
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Lady Krystal
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Post by Lady Krystal on Nov 26, 2009 17:46:10 GMT -5
This PAST Ragnarok, I believe, minors had to have someone listed on their waiver as the responsible party who was going to be on site. NEXT Ragnarok, it MUST be a court-appointed or legal guardian. No more 'this is my little brother' or anything like that. Percival is correct, that's not a Ragnarok enforcement, that's a Cooper's lake enforcement (though it's gone over splendidly for those of us who've ever worked a security shift and hate being responsible for kids underage who can't control themselves). As previously mentioned, this is a concept that is being hammered out, and I do believe that the temporary guardianship that Nox mentioned above IS being discussed, but because I've a) been sick, and b) it's been a good 3 weeks since discussion, I don't want to jump the gun and say that 'yes parent of child A can sign over temporary guardianship to person B' until I've spoken with the rest of the council. At the end of the day, if something does happen to the effect that it did at War.. ultimately it won't matter who's name is on that paper, because all the fingers always point at someone else when it comes down to fault. But that's another subject I'd like to not get into too deeply today.
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Post by Ashalind Silverscale on Nov 26, 2009 18:17:04 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the original Gates thread but I s'pose I'll add it here as well. I'm all for the whole stricter drinking age rules and have no problem with those rules being further enforced. Personally I think that is all that is needed. Removing the group of minors that can't get a parent to come out definitely puts a damper on the event. Everyone likes to come to these events knowing that they will see their close friends that they only actually see a few times a year. It'd be unfair to remove a specific group from the picture, because I don't know many parents that would go to a dagorhir event with their kids.
I'd also like to add that the whole reason for the idea of requiring a minor to have their parent/guardian started with someone that was (while not old enough to drink) NOT a minor. I think that requiring a parent/guardian is kind of irrelevant in this case because being a minor had absolutely nothing to do with the event that happened at War
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Lady Krystal
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Post by Lady Krystal on Nov 26, 2009 19:11:40 GMT -5
There have also been issues of people who are beginning to feel some of the event isn't "family friendly" and that apparently some of the minors aren't old enough/mature enough to handle seeing or hearing or enduring some of the situations both on and off the field.
Plus, the threat of removing people (and having done so in the past) for the underaged or over-consumption of alcohol clearly hasn't been enough to rectify our problem in the past. Even if the person in question isn't a minor.. if his friend's mom or dad is there then we also have the advantage of "Oi! 'Ew! Pink Skin!.. I've gotta watch my arse or they'll tell mom and dad what I'm doing".
I wish it was as cut and dry as 'don't let underage people drink' but it's never that simple and if it's going to be as actively enforced as it should be then there need to be adjustments made.
Frankly I'd be open to discussion on how to alternatively attempt to keep the underaged situations to a minimum. I just need other, viable, ideas.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Nov 26, 2009 19:22:51 GMT -5
I am going to say somethign that will probably be insulting to DUS, but I gotta say, at every event I have seen/heard/read someone say DUS is strict on thier underage drinking rules. I have NEVER seen someone get into trouble for supplying or being a drinking minor, at a DUS event. And I don't just mean in AOM camp. Tht being said, both the two major changes seem pretty major. I think BOTH are striong changes that might solve the issue. But to do both changes at once is too much. I say try one, then if it does not change things, add the other at War. Don;t go from nothing to all out... it is to much at once, and probably un-necessary Agree
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Post by Percival on Nov 26, 2009 19:34:59 GMT -5
if this is none of my business that is fine, but I only stopped by War. I was there perhaps 8 hours at most on firday eving /night. I do not know what everyone is speeking of . Since most everyone seems to be talking about "what happened at War" and it seems to carry some weight in the topic we are discussing can some one please IM me the basic's of what happened. Please do not post for I do know the nature of what i am asking to be relayed and I do not need names of people and only add names of realms / camps if it does not make sence otherwise. It may shed some light on things for me
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Post by Skeith, the Forsaken on Nov 26, 2009 19:47:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this is related but the guy who got drunk at War was an adult by the way. He was 18 if anyone didn't know that.
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Orrin None-son
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Post by Orrin None-son on Nov 26, 2009 20:48:39 GMT -5
One other thing to keep in mind. I KNOW the guy who is helping to run the Courtesy patrol is a non-drinker who dis-likes drinking.
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aster
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Post by aster on Nov 26, 2009 23:35:40 GMT -5
Maybe some one should talk to a missouri lawyer. Not a para legal, not a legal secretary, not a pre-law freshmen at the Kansas city community college, and definitely not a Ravid fan of Law and order. I am no longer on the Dominion council and I firmly believe there is some middle ground, I personally have recruited a group of kids for the iron wolves that can't attend right now. But some thing has to be done. We have managed to dodge a bullet this time but we could be in a huge amount of trouble very very quickly. I personally think realms and units should watch out for each other but obviously that has failed. We have tried to set up non-drinking parties and they never get off the ground. When this event started I knew everyone there now I am lucky to know half the people's names. We have reached out to several groups for help and were told no. We have thrown people out of dominion events before we just kept it very quiet, I think that is a testament to the people that run the event. This policy probably is a bit much but it is the best we can come up with. You know I have my 11 year old son at most of these events and have never had a problem, But I talk to him and I keep him in places he should be. To be honest I don't care if he see's a blow up sex doll on the field. You have to have a sence of humor to be in dagorhir. I hope everyone who says they are going to help at gates 7 does but I will believe it when I see it. I have see to many people pull out at the last minute because there pet fish is having a mental break down or they pulled a muscle in their ear lob. It comes down to responsibility. Realm leader and assistant leader watch you guys. Keep an eye on all of them and if one of them is getting to drunk no matter the age help them. Unit captains and other unit leader take charge. Tell the kids " I find you in this camp or that camp I am going to beat the crap out of you. I find you drinking I am going to beat the crap out of you." If you don't have the stones to do that well maybe you should'nt be in a leadership position. I have been a realm leader and am a unit captain and I do have the stones to do it. Leaders tell your realms/unit members before you get to the event that if any one under age gets caught drinking the least of their worries is going to be a member of the dominion. Tell them they will want to be taken home to get away from you. If you can't communicate with your realm or unit well maybe you shouldn't be in leadership position. This is not that complexe a issue if we do what we are suppose to do as leaders. It sucks being a leader one of several reason I am no longer a realm leader. Another being I probably couldn't get voted in anymore. I have hit many subject here that I dod'nt intend to but I am frustated. My leader ship thought is pretty simple. Lead, follow or get out of the way. I am presently following. What are you doing to fix the problem. Are you leading the solution? Are you following some one who is fixing the problem or are you being quiet and getting out of the way so some one can fix the problem.
I am Lord Aster and I approved this message (SHHHHH mystic doesnt know I wrote this)
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Post by Ashalind Silverscale on Nov 27, 2009 1:09:12 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree. Realm leaders are not responsible for the actions of each individual in their realm. They can't take the blame for what someone in their realm does. Nobody has the right to control anybody but themselves. However we do expect them to know and respect the rules set for an event, but the problem is that it's hard to respect rules when they aren't very enforced. We have color coded bracelets for a reason, but how many bartenders actually check them? If the rules were further enforced and taken more seriously, with the addition of patrols checking camps to make sure that there are no drunken minors, is there really reason to make it a requirement that minors have a parent/ legal guardian present with them?
Also I do think the "alternate legal guardian" waiver idea sounds a lot more fair and fully support it. If these changes with the event rules truly must be made then I'd say this idea would be the best alternative to requiring an actual parent/guardian.
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