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Post by Skeith, the Forsaken on Oct 28, 2009 14:27:58 GMT -5
I've been wanting to suggest the idea of a midwest realm based map for a while now. My first inspiration was from the Dagorhir realm Eryndor. They have a large realm based map that they fight for and hold scenario battles over. Much like the scenarios held for Ragnarok's "story line". I've always found this idea intriguing and it seems other members of the community like this idea as well. With a map I feel the RP aspect of our community would improve. I had the idea of being able to direct exactly where a campaign (event) was being help. The only issue was how would this map work... This lead me into looking at other boffer games that use maps. I stumbled upon Darkon. Their land control system is very extensive and includes currency and the purchasing of ships and structures. Along with trade and alliances among the different realms, with set limits and rules of course. (rules can be found on the darkon main site) Darkon uses a hex map system which seems to look good while defining land well. Darkon Map style www.darkon.org/LandMap-2008-OCT-12.pdfTraditionally hex maps look like this. This hex map is closer to my envisionment With hexes different types of terrain could be labeled. (as shown above) With the idea of terrain brings the idea of battle types. Ideas and battles could be ran in theme with the land being "fought" on. For example boat rules being conducted on shores and water hexes during battles. Possibly a large chasm located on a wasteland hex. Rule applying would be something like large pit in the middle of the field. The possibilities could go on. A made up region would gain some sort of story from the battles we conduct. Another idea I had for using the hex map for battles would be land control. A realm's land control would be able to expand or shrink depending on the outcome of a scenario battle. Of course these scenario battle would be predetermined and announced. (ran at popular events like Gates, War, ect.) Also different rules could be established when using a map for game play. For example, in the past local events have used mills, forges and other points to add effects to the battle like, no flight arrows or unbreakable shields for designated people. These points could be represented on a hex by a piece. After the result of a battle the hex can be taken over. This would give who ever has control of the hex/piece the special ability. In the past I have tried a few different attempts but I though some outside input would be nice. Again this is just some brainstorming. Any thoughts?
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Demose
Soldier of Fortune
Supreme Tyrant of the Arcani
Posts: 86
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Post by Demose on Oct 28, 2009 14:53:58 GMT -5
I love the idea, and have considered it all myself after watching the Darkon documentary while drinking about a year or less ago. Intrigued the hell out of me! Watching the drow backstab the... other guys, when they thought they were on their side because they bribed 'em... It was complicated, and I was inebriated, but it was amazing.
As an amateur game designer (My major in college, and I've even worked for Union Entertainment) and long time DM, I'd love to offer any services whatsoever to this project.
Cool thing about this whole thing? Stick-Jocks can just fight and ignore the upper level scope of play, since it's not imposing crazy rules on the battlefield like LIGHTNINGBOLT LIGHTNINGBOLT (Hur Hur!). Don't even need individual currency or whatnot. That could be on a realm by realm basis (for those involved. This being optional would be a necessity (as odd as that sounds, hah)).
Good luck in getting this off the ground, and I hope people can see the merit in this. You've got my numbah Mr. The Forsaken, if you need any assistance.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 28, 2009 17:12:27 GMT -5
That's a good idea Skeith.
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Khyn
Heroic Adventurer
Posts: 130
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Post by Khyn on Oct 28, 2009 18:41:16 GMT -5
How can I help make this happen?
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Post by Mallos Runetotem on Oct 28, 2009 23:18:34 GMT -5
I've always been down for things like this. Do it
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 29, 2009 2:36:40 GMT -5
One piece of advice would be to make it a unit based world and not a realm based world, for several reasons.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 29, 2009 6:34:25 GMT -5
Also, it wold be very hard to implement and modify to be appealing to at least the majority or Dagorhir fighters here. However, if done correctly, it might make pulling off a one day event every month or two possible and more important to fighters in the area.
The biggest problem is that if you wold only be able to add people to the map that are relatively close (Probably only MO realms) and that would cut down numbers a lot.
I would guess the most participants you would ever have in this would be around 100, unless you wrote a really slick, appealing game that made everyone gaga and called it "Dagorhir: Total War" Booyah. Not trying to be a debbie downer either! Just being realistic. It would be a lot of work with a distinct possibility of failure,
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Khyn
Heroic Adventurer
Posts: 130
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Post by Khyn on Oct 29, 2009 9:30:27 GMT -5
I like the idea of seperating it by units, though I dont know about limiting it to just MO. Of course the further it extends the less likely everyone will show up, but that limitation makes sense if the map is drawn relitive to the actual locations of the units. Guilder Brute Squad would fight Alterran units and Midgar for land more often than they would fight the Dreadwood Company. It also would create a greater need to win battles like the Clan vs. Haven that happened at War.
Skieth, the next step would be to ask around to find out who is interested in being on the map. If a unit doesn't care, it's less to draw. I'll ask around and see if I can find anyone that is interested in the map idea.
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Post by Skeith, the Forsaken on Oct 29, 2009 11:27:27 GMT -5
Yes I want to make this something big if possible but I understand a test run would need to be done first. I would like to hold a day event possibly that would use a trial run of the system.
Also to add I know other groups wouldn't be included in the map outside of Missouri and the surrounding states. Thats why I wanted to make a midwest map that focused on the groups we all fight out here. We can accommodate that though, because we would be the ones creating the map and leaving room for expansion.
To go into the idea of being unit based. I think this could work for sure if the map was more of a smaller scale than larger. I was wanting to create a full map for RP purposes though. I do however like the idea of using units instead of realms. This works because Units of the same realm will be allies on a map working as one side/team near the same area.
I'll keep developing some info and let you guys know. How about some brainstorming on rules and actions. Any thoughts on what should be included?
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Post by Oberon of Lyonesse on Oct 29, 2009 11:43:58 GMT -5
we too had this idea after seeing the darkon documentary but have not yet had the time to fully flesh out the system we were gonna run it internally with our units and run it kind of like RISK
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Demose
Soldier of Fortune
Supreme Tyrant of the Arcani
Posts: 86
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Post by Demose on Oct 30, 2009 2:11:31 GMT -5
As much as I feel I'll get the shaft for this, but you could make initial hex ownership amount based on the amount of members in the unit. Would be a good way to represent larger units/realms from the get-go.
I'll get on over to the Darkon site and being scouring it for mechanical ideas, but I feel we'll need to limit movement to real-time or a set time. Like, a set number of actions per month, taken at any point during the month.
Goin' to do some research, but there are a few idears
EDIT: Also, Darkon has a realm with the Yellow Sign as their flag. I almost teared up when I saw that.
ANOTHER EDIT: I guess it might be better to have all units have the same amount of provinces, and just let the amount of units speak for the alliance within a realm.
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deamos
Heroic Adventurer
Posts: 132
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Post by deamos on Oct 30, 2009 6:30:23 GMT -5
I like the idea if done right it think it would give a great motivation for stick jocks to fight harder. If you are going to be taking turf i know i would want to get as much arse possible for bragging rights.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 30, 2009 13:35:30 GMT -5
Yeah, everyone should get the same. Also, for it to work, you would need to have "Dagorhir:Total War" Events at least every 2-3 months, with Total War battles also taking place at certain events if all the unit leaders agreed.
Each Army gets 12 move points, slowed by certain terrains and each unit leader decides where his army moves. You would limit the number of active Armies of each unit to one (maybe not, but that seems best)
Each unit only gets one attack action per event, i.e. can only take one uncontrolled or enemy hex per event as long as they have four unit members (They must bear the units emblem and be regular members) at the event.
Each Unit gets as many Defense actions as needed (i.e. defending against attack) as long as they have one regular member at the event with heraldry.
The purpose of only having one army in the field represents that there is still a home army, no specific members at the event are at either location, and all members of a unit at the event get to fight in all defensive and offensive actions.
Battles taking place in certain terrains will be mocked with battles of the same kind. i.e., a woods battle must take place in the woods with defined or undefined borders, castle battles must have a castle of some type (probably castle boundaries for now). Certain terrains will be difficult to mimic, but it can be down. Such as, Mountains could be mimicked by having many death spot representing dead falls etc.
Taking a castle or capital city requires 2 attack actions, i.e. 2 events. However, if the first attack action is successful in breaching the castles walls, the second attack action is free. The second attack action will be inside the courtyard and within the halls of the castle and will be mostly enclosed spaces (most often represented by Rope Boundaries.
Units must provide their own castles/boundaries. The castle dimensions must be meet regs and have one door. A fort will have 2 doors .
Likewise, other units or mercenaries may choose to fight with a unit for offensive or defensive actions, however, if they own hexes they lose their right to do offensive and Defensive actions that event.
Mercenaries (those not owning hexes) may only fight with one unit per event, but may fight in their offensive action and all their defensive actions.
If an active army in the field is assaulted by another active army of another unit, that army is sent automatically back to its capital city, same if the army attacking an active army in the field and losing. This is likewise the case in naval battles.
Ships must be bought, however, the most basic ship type moves through the water at the rate of 24 hexes per event (Some ships may more up to 48 hexes an event).
If a naval battle is lost, a saving roll must be in place to decide if the ship is lost (at a 40% fail chance roll). If the ship is lost the enemy attacker may then roll to acquire the ship for their own country and the ship is then in one of their port cities at the begining of the next event. (at a very low chance roll).
It cost one movement point for an army to board a ship and one more to unload from a ship. Naval moves are separate from land moves. So an army could move 3 spaces and then onto a ship (taking a total of 4 moves) the ship might then carry them 24 hexes, and then the army could unload (1 move point) and still move 7 hexes.
Events are planned and approved by the council. The council is a group of all the unit leaders (Or a designated proxy) that own hexes. 2/3 Majority is required to plan the event and the council is responsible for the following; Planning event locations, Advertising events, Planning event Logistics and entry fees, managing monetary assets that are acquired from events, appointing a treasurer for maintenance of real money and assets gained from the event.
Each unit leader would also be responsible for keeping a current roll of current unit members (Real name and battle name) with the Total War Gaming club, so at events we know whether they are a normal member or not to count towards soldier counts.
All new Units wishing to Join the battle map will receive a set number of hexes upon starting up that all new Kingdoms will receive.
There are the very basics, with those rules right there you could go pretty far. The only other rules that are super improtant to set-up would be about how much gold each hex gets per event and how you spend it, etc. etc. That can get pretty involved.
It might be possible to eventually include Belegarth realms, so maybe drop Dagorhir from whatever name we choose would be wise.
You would also need to have a Warmasters guild. Effectively a group of people not belonging to a unit with its own land (and never belonging to one). These WMs would be who the Unit leaders came to to move armies on the field without making it general knowledge that an enemy army was in the area or coming towards them.
This would allow for a better tactical situation. It unit could also "scout" from each of their cities, forts, villages, etc. and from their active field army. It would cost x amount of gold to hire scouts from a castle, fort, etc. per diameter of area bought. For instance, a Unit might pay scouts to scout out to an area of 5 hexes in a circle, which would cost 500 gp, or out to an area of 10 hexes in diameter, which would cost 2500 gp.
Likewise, the army could scout around it by using move points. an area of 4 spaces in diameter would cost 1 move point and an area of 8 spaces in diameter would cost 3 move points, and an area of 10 spaces would cost 5 move points, area of 12 would cost 9 move points, etc. (An ratio of move/area decreasing with range, as the law of diminishing return would dictate).
Active armies could also pay off scouts or take great pains to "move without a trace."
All movements and turns would take place in the morning of the event and all battles fought there-after. Since only one attack action and one consequence for that action would be in effect for an particular unit, this would be acceptable. All relevant actions that are taking place to a unit will be told to them when they go to the WMs to tell them their actions for the turn, e.g. if they are getting attacked etc.
They will also tell the WMs what structures they want to start building at that event and all other non-combat activity (like giving money to another unit, etc.)
The WMs individually may be a part of a mercenary unit, however, they are never allowed to divulge strategic information about the battle map or game to who they are working for for any price. The mercenary in-game is considered to be the character, and as a Warmaster they are considered to be Meta-game. So their character basically has none of the knowledge they do as a WMs. Any WM caught cheating will lose that position forever.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 31, 2009 2:56:46 GMT -5
Also, though, it might be best to copy paste the pertinent parts of the Darkon rulebook, edit it as needed, and use that. We might have to add a new section and change some wording, plus take out the magic and classes. But I think it could be done pretty easily, if I have time over December break I'll do it. But really, to pull it off totally would be a concerted effort from a variety of folk.
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Post by Iohn de Mar on Nov 12, 2009 21:37:54 GMT -5
This is a great idea, but I'd hate to see Dagorhir turn into the D game. The idea of conquering lands and gaining in-game land power is a fun prospect. Maybe we can incorporate this idea into an ongoing EVENT as opposed to an ongoing campaign of sorts?
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