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Leaning
Oct 22, 2007 5:48:24 GMT -5
Post by jackyl on Oct 22, 2007 5:48:24 GMT -5
there are many reasons to say there is no god defiance is part of human nature so if many say there is some will always think otherwise strong beleif in evolution some belive that if i can't see it its not real during disasters the where was god theory not beliving in fate umm... i know there's many more but i can't think of them at the moment
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Cyodie Centrawoven
Board Imp
Master of Catgirls
Your friend is the man who knows all about you, and still likes you
Posts: 525
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Leaning
Oct 24, 2007 23:41:42 GMT -5
Post by Cyodie Centrawoven on Oct 24, 2007 23:41:42 GMT -5
becaue for some to accept that something exists without any proof, it would mean they would have ot belive in everything else made up or otherwise. like i say there is a fariy sitting on your shoulder, they would have to belive it.
could be beacuse they are true rebels and hate to be a conformist.
maybe in doing so, they won't have to expect something after they die, maybe they have "sinned" and don't want to face the consequences of what they may have commited, in the fabled "afterlife".
why do people cry out for a god? is it because it is human nature to call out to some higher form of being? to some, to say there is no god is to say we have no real meaning in existing.
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Leaning
Oct 25, 2007 0:04:55 GMT -5
Post by Necavi D. Omnes on Oct 25, 2007 0:04:55 GMT -5
If I have no meaning, and all else does not matter in the long run... When in decades I shall be forgotten and all progress mean nothing... Does this mean I can kill myself, or perhaps eradicate the world? Say screw you to those of whom I loved, and in turn loved me... After all, there would be no consenquences.
... Haha. ^ ^
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Leaning
Oct 25, 2007 16:16:54 GMT -5
Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 25, 2007 16:16:54 GMT -5
Everything matters
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Alo Taleweaver
Heroic Adventurer
Hebrew Hammer
Monk, not Jedi
Posts: 220
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Leaning
Oct 26, 2007 12:56:06 GMT -5
Post by Alo Taleweaver on Oct 26, 2007 12:56:06 GMT -5
May I interject?
Athiest doctrine is very appealing in its use of reasoning. Many times I would become a beliver (unbeliver?) if I could shake but one question.
Without a Higher being, what dictates morality?
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Buster of Shadows
Board Imp
Preacher of the Dark Church
Bash Bash, Bash Grumash Bash
Posts: 308
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Leaning
Oct 26, 2007 17:59:09 GMT -5
Post by Buster of Shadows on Oct 26, 2007 17:59:09 GMT -5
What is morality?
Ponder it. Wonder it.
Is it moral for me to kill? What if it was for my life? Or yours? Or even out of cold blood? What is the difference?
What is sin? Can you take your neighbors wife? What if he beats and abuses her, and you give her a better life, away from abuse? Is it still wrong?
Should I steal? it is wrong ,no? But what if you are starving, with no home, and no job? Is it wrong to want to live?
What is morality? Where is it immoral, and where is moral.
Fine lines are not lines........
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Greybeard
Nooblet
The perminant identity informs the temprary ones
Posts: 23
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Leaning
Oct 26, 2007 21:35:55 GMT -5
Post by Greybeard on Oct 26, 2007 21:35:55 GMT -5
I detect in this tread, more than a little bit of a struggle with pragmatism, which in the end, is a self-serving sort of personal code of ethics. I believe the wicans have boiled it down into a nice clean sentence… “Do what thou wouldst, but harm none.” Or in other words… “I can do anything I want, just so long as I don’t hurt anybody.” Which on the surface sounds really cool, but in practice, it does not work out so well, since the rule is understood to mean that “I” get to determine what harms “you”. Here’s how it plays out… I like to play my music LOUD in my home. Since no one else in the family minds, that’s what I do. But my next-door neighbor works third shift… He does not appreciate my loud music and comes over to ask me to turn it down… WHAT DO I DO? Why should I diminish one of my few enjoyments in life for him? I’m not hurting him. It’s my home I can do what I want. The rule of pragmatism says… if it’s worth more to me to enjoy my music than to enjoy my neighbor… screw him… I might even go so far as to turn my music up even louder because he pissed me off with his whining.
On the other hand the golden rule of the Christians says that I should love others as I love myself. What’s the diff? Well, in practice it works like this… Lets imagine that -I- was the one who worked a third shift job, and I had a neighbor that liked to play his music real loud. Since I need to work to pay my bills, and I need to sleep in order to do my work well… I think I will go over and ask my neighbor to turn the music down, and I hope he would respond to my request with grace and kindness and curtesy… since that is what I would like… that is what I should do for my neighbor... and treat him as I would want to be treated. You see, in practice… I need to put HIM before ME because that is the way I would want to be treated. It is almost the direct opposite of pragmatism. Pragmatism is at its core a SELF loving philosophy. Christians (and a few others) preach an “other” loving ethic. Which is not very “Pragmatic” since it asks us to postpone our immediate gratifications or our immediate joys.
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Leaning
Oct 26, 2007 22:06:16 GMT -5
Post by Necavi D. Omnes on Oct 26, 2007 22:06:16 GMT -5
Well put, Greybeard! I myself am a Christian, so it puzzles me why someone would choose to be an athiest or a Pagan, Satanist... Anything except for a Christian. And this is not to say that I want to purge the world of all else, and I try not to be ignorant, but I would like some understanding when it comes to why these things are done, and why these actions are chosen... Which is why I asked Eldrin to explain his reasoning to me in the first place...
And I'm still waiting, Eldrin.
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Buster of Shadows
Board Imp
Preacher of the Dark Church
Bash Bash, Bash Grumash Bash
Posts: 308
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 10:26:34 GMT -5
Post by Buster of Shadows on Oct 27, 2007 10:26:34 GMT -5
IT puzzels me why people chose Christianty. It is Religion for profit. No offence, As I do not wish to upset, but look at a churh. Organized religion is the worst thing in the world.
Now, Don't get me wrong, I think that all religions have valid points. Christ tought people to be loving and understanding. Very good quality. I thank christains who truly practice that, but beleve me, there are not many. His Word have been chopped and sewed back so much the origanail is well lost.
And I have to ask, What Bibles have you read? You ever read the "Satans Bible'? Or the Sacred texts? If not, I suggust you do. Open your mind, and just listen to the storys, and break them down, and learn them.
Religion is a funny thing. The biggest religion in the world got there by slaughter, and bloodshed. Yet, they condem Hitler for the same crimes their forefathers committed.
You want to find the truth of What to belive? Open your eyes. Watch the world around you. Look at the good, the bad, The hurtful. Look at the murder, the Rape, the abuse. But also look at the child. The innocent. The the unblemished. The people that help others in need.
Life is hard, Religion can help, or hurt. But before we knock or hate on other religions, lets look in to our own, and its history. It may open your eyes.........
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 13:14:51 GMT -5
Post by Necavi D. Omnes on Oct 27, 2007 13:14:51 GMT -5
Did you not read what I said, Buster? I specifically said that I want to understand why people will choose something other than Christianity, et cetera. I do look into other religions to learn what they are, how they work, and such of the ilk. What you just said offended me, and I'm not afraid to say so. It could be because I'm ignorant... Perhaps. Most likely.
But the church. Which church? The Roman-Catholic church? The church of Baptists? I'm confused, there's more than one 'building', although if you ask any Christian (for you'll find that Christianity is the following of CHRIST, and how many religions of that do you see?), they will tell you that Christ is the Church, and that thus far He has asked nothing but for devotion and faith. Hmm... There's a lot I want to say, actually. I'm quite livid. I'll let myself think upon this before speaking further. But God knows, and God shall decide.
Seriously though, Buster... Take your own advice. From what I see, you need it the most.
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Buster of Shadows
Board Imp
Preacher of the Dark Church
Bash Bash, Bash Grumash Bash
Posts: 308
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 14:02:19 GMT -5
Post by Buster of Shadows on Oct 27, 2007 14:02:19 GMT -5
Well, I apoligize for offending you, as it is not what I ment to do. This is the problem with disscussing religion, everybody gets upset. I did not mean to anger you, just point out some flaws.
What exactly do you see there that angers you? What was said to piss you off so bad?
I would really like to continue this conversation, but I would like to do so as the adults we are, with out the anger.
To answer your question, all organized religion is a profit wanting organization. Note: The Bible says that church is one or more people talking about god.(paraphrased) Welcome to church.
Now on this, Why is it you see me as needing to follow that. I do. I do not claim to follow one religion. I have taken bits and peices of many different scriptures, and teachings of others. I am a good guy. I put up people in need, I give to the poor. I am in a NONPROFIT organization that helps handicapped and autistic children. But I do not follow christ, and to most Christians, I am labeled as a heretic for what I say. My questions about chritianty are alwys answered the same way, With anger,discontent, dismissal, or voilence.
Ever been punched in the face by a Preacher? I have. I asked him if the crusades were a form of genocide. Honest question. Not a good answer. I do not wish to offend, really I dont. I am sorry I have, but it proves a point I have seen proved over and over again.
Sorry.
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 14:55:20 GMT -5
Post by Squire Witesh on Oct 27, 2007 14:55:20 GMT -5
IT puzzels me why people chose Christianty. It is Religion for profit. No offence, As I do not wish to upset, but look at a churh. Organized religion is the worst thing in the world. Now, Don't get me wrong, I think that all religions have valid points. Christ tought people to be loving and understanding. Very good quality. I thank christains who truly practice that, but beleve me, there are not many. His Word have been chopped and sewed back so much the origanail is well lost. And I have to ask, What Bibles have you read? You ever read the "Satans Bible'? Or the Sacred texts? If not, I suggust you do. Open your mind, and just listen to the storys, and break them down, and learn them. Religion is a funny thing. The biggest religion in the world got there by slaughter, and bloodshed. Yet, they condem Hitler for the same crimes their forefathers committed. You want to find the truth of What to belive? Open your eyes. Watch the world around you. Look at the good, the bad, The hurtful. Look at the murder, the Rape, the abuse. But also look at the child. The innocent. The the unblemished. The people that help others in need. Life is hard, Religion can help, or hurt. But before we knock or hate on other religions, lets look in to our own, and its history. It may open your eyes......... Well spoken Buster! Me... I just say that I'm a Pagan. My dad is a preachor... believe me! I grew up in the church. I studied the bible and many different beliefs on what it means... and many other religions. I've also noticed that everyone thinks everyone else is going to hell if everyone else doesn't believe exactly what they believe. OK people... PEOPLE wrote the Bible! ok... It wasn't God. And it was many different people with many different views! And back in the old days THEY REWROTE THE BIBLE to make it say exactly what they wanted at the time! Christianity has just been a way to control people to get them to do what the leader... or the church wants. Back in the old days the priests would tell people that they had to buy their way into heaven! Not with good deads... they had to pay money for a piece of paper saying that their sins were forgiven and thats it! Just like that the most filthy child molester was "into heaven". Christianity is a religion full of lies and deceit and slaughter in the name of God! Don't get me wronge... there are those few good ones. I've seen them, but they are so few! Do you know how many pagans, witches, druids, etc. they killed just because they didn't believe the same thing? And they didn't do it nicely... you should look it up some time. Women and children as well as men... From Wikipedia: ... and these are just some of the more common things done. There are things MUCH more grotesque! But there are those good Christians out there... like I said, and I have many good Christian friends... but not many of them really know the horrible things about their religion. They probably don't want to know. But I think that if your going to tell someone else what to believe you should at least know what your talking about, and so many of the Christians that try to convert me now adays DON'T. Its sad when I know more about their religion than they do and they think I'm the one that needs to be preached to. Go figure... and also... i dont mean to offend anyone... this is not directed at anyone... these are just my own beliefs and finding... if this sounds mean I'm really sorry! i really don't mean it to be!!! religion is such a touchy topic and it really shouldn't be!... but when you start discussing peoples beliefs it seems people can get a bit touchy. there really aren't any ways around offending people on this topic. but you need to do your best not to be offended or offending or... just not get into it. it may cause to many problems... so careful. also, i have no set religion... i only call myself a pagan because that is the closest thing that i can say i am... i know that pagans have some dark history as well... like Ive said Ive studied many religions... this is just my views on Christianity and why i no longer want to call myself a Christian...
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 15:42:50 GMT -5
Post by rhia on Oct 27, 2007 15:42:50 GMT -5
*Insert diversionary tactic* So.. uh.. how about that local sports team? *End diversionary tactic*
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 16:18:27 GMT -5
Post by Necavi D. Omnes on Oct 27, 2007 16:18:27 GMT -5
Oh, hell.
*sigh* Now to undo the damage I've done.
Alright, firstly; I was not offended by any insults towards Christianity. Quite frankly, I know that the Catholic church, amongst others, has a ton of flaws. No, I was offended by being called narrow-minded. Buster, I know this was not your intent, but I did take it that way, and for that I apologize.
But what I meant by "take your own advice," was that perhaps you should lay aside all assumptions you have of Christian churches being profit organizations and take the time out to travel, find one small out-of-the-way church, and visit it. You'll find a lot of privately owned churches that do many charity events, but never ask for donations for the church itself. And then perhaps you should sit down with a pastor (did you know that its Latin for shepard?) who has a good head on his shoulders and ask. Don't go to one of the preachers who shout everything and have a vein pulsing on their neck... That's probably where you've gotten your opinion--- Life Church T.V. (shudder) and others that have become commercial. There are always exceptions.
And I would love to have this discussion, would you be willing.
Also, Witesh:: I am terribly sorry that those things had to happen, and that so many who have tried to convert you were unaware of such things. Unfortunately, I will admit, there are many who try to use religion to their own ends, and often they will alter text or re-word things to their advantage. I can only apologize for them and hope that you encounter someone different. I also agree on the Indulgences; paying to sin without any toll on the immortal soul. It is very, very wrong, and very, very stupid. Which is why I love Luther for writing the 95 Theses. XD
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Greybeard
Nooblet
The perminant identity informs the temprary ones
Posts: 23
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 18:07:55 GMT -5
Post by Greybeard on Oct 27, 2007 18:07:55 GMT -5
IT puzzels me why people chose Christianty. It is Religion for profit. No offence, As I do not wish to upset, but look at a churh. Organized religion is the worst thing in the world. Ah, Buster... name one religion that isn't "for profit" since by your definition I gather any organization that desires to pay her bills is in it for the money. Now aside from paying the morgage and what not, what else do you suppose that organized religion does with her revenues? Beside the establishment of community service organizations, social services, hospitals (a uniquely Christian creation by the way) Schools, etc... yeah... couldn't be a worse institution that that. ;D Now I take no offence at the adult discussion, I only roll my eyes at the missinformation. Which for now I desire to let pass with out comment. I'm cool with your arguments for paganism, I mean, if you believe in something strongly you should feel free to express your reaons for believing it to be superlative. So I'm not going to get bent or take offence or even get defensive. So please don't take my good natured responces as sarcasim, they are meant to be taken with humor. And all good humor contains a grain of truth, and that's all I'm voicing in my responces, what I believe and trust to be the truth. I try and state what is central to my spirituality with kindness and clarity. I don't try and argue anyone into faith. I don't believe in prostelitizing apologetics. I know too many Christians who do and and I'm guessing that they annoy me almost as much as they annoy you guys. I'll treat you with respect, and I desire, and hope for the same fro you, and if not well... I like other subjects too. Keep on keep'n on
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