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Post by Percival on Nov 26, 2009 12:32:50 GMT -5
I would like to invite any more posts about the changes to minors and drinking issues to a new thread in in the water hole. So those who would like to talk about in a meaningful and productive can but at the same time this thread is no overpowered and can still serve as a thread to update The main Post about Gates
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Post by Ashalind Silverscale on Nov 26, 2009 13:36:31 GMT -5
I was really hoping to be able to bring my younger sister along for her first event. I know of a lot of other underaged kids that will be upset with this, including those coming from the east. I can understand the reasons for putting these rules down totally with what happened at War. But surely there is an alternative. Isn't the enforced rule on no underage drinking enough? I know that has always been in the event rules but was never really put much into use. Hell even at the party in the sacred grove I had people at the bar offering me drinks and I'm only 19. If you enforced the whole checking people's color coded bracelets before offering them something to drink, then is there really a need to keep the minors out of the event? I know VERY few parents that will go to a dagorhir event with their kids, especially when a lot of their parents think of Dagorhir as a waste of time.
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Whisper MoonSon
Heroic Adventurer
Just another lunatic - that's me.
Posts: 126
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Post by Whisper MoonSon on Nov 26, 2009 19:55:00 GMT -5
What about a medical waiver or temporary guardianship like the SCA uses for minors in attendance at events without their parents? It's a piece of paper that basically says "<Legal Name>, aka <Character Name> of <Unit> is responsible for the behavior and welfare of my child (<Legal Name>, aka <Character Name>) and is authorized to make decisions on my behalf in case of medical emergency." Troll keeps a copy and the kid keeps on copy on his/her person.
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Post by solusar on Nov 26, 2009 19:55:26 GMT -5
Two things. 1. Thanks for calling me lovely Krystal. You rule also. 2. I can't wait to kill all you guys there, regardless of policies for partying. Seriously guys, this is a combat sport, not a rave. Muck'in get over it.
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Morals
Heroic Adventurer
i'm one who is accepted by few respected by less wanted by none this makes me all the more dangerous
Posts: 175
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Post by Morals on Nov 27, 2009 9:55:03 GMT -5
i have another question why is gates moving closer to rag? the dates that you have now put gates at a little over a month from rag. i dont know about some people but it will be hard for me to get the money together for both being that close together. this is just a qurry.
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Lady Krystal
Calendar Techie
Maroon is FTW!
Kushiel's Chosen
Posts: 664
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Post by Lady Krystal on Nov 27, 2009 10:22:24 GMT -5
Soulsar - of course ^_-
Morals, the decision was made to try and avoid the potential for the 'april showers' that seem to always assault the event. Plus, with the way easter falls next year, it was either the first week of April (which can either be wet and miserable, potentially cold and even MORE miserable) or the very last weekend that cascaded over the first of May.
It was a concern I had over the dates as well, but the argument that there was ample time between now and then to plan accordingly for both nullified the idea of moving it any earlier.
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Post by Iohn de Mar on Nov 28, 2009 18:35:05 GMT -5
For those of you who have a problem with the minors in attendance rule. You can thank Haven for that. I've heard all manner of colorful descriptions about us now. So instead of agreeing with ourselves on our own forums, I'll come here to tell you why we apparently ruined it all for everyone. Because, from the looks of it, regulating alcohol consumption by minors ruins all the fun. Dominion did what they thought they had to do because we voiced how we felt about underage drinking. So don't blame Dominion for ensuring this event keeps on keeping on by regulating attendance.
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Post by Kurai Neruda D'elacroix on Nov 28, 2009 19:09:35 GMT -5
This should really go in a separate thread probably, but the main thing is this, Iohn: While you guys take offense to the actions and habits that have become much of a staple at events, the rest of us adjusted and work on a generally accepted "Don't ask, don't tell, it's your choice" system. And now, since you guys have whined enough to change that, people are not pleased. I don't really agree with underage drinking, nor do I drink myself, for the most part, but limiting the choice to do so because one of your guys got stupid and messed up in a party camp is not exactly gonna be smiled at. The Events are where we go to unwind, relax and not worry about the strictures of mundane life. Things are bound to get a little crazy. And some underage kids are gonna try things, like alcohol. And you know what? Most of them either don't like it, or get fucked up and stay away from it for a while afterwords. The problem works itself out. Or it used to. Thanks a bunch for changing the equation.
OH, and before I forget, your bitching has also made it necessary to change the rules for those who can attend without parents, which means many of our friends wont be able to attend. If you don't like the way these events go so much, go ahead and feel free to stop coming. We'll be sure to hold a memorial party for you in Mordor and all get blazing drunk.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Nov 28, 2009 19:23:27 GMT -5
For those of you who have a problem with the minors in attendance rule. You can thank Haven for that. I've heard all manner of colorful descriptions about us now. So instead of agreeing with ourselves on our own forums, I'll come here to tell you why we apparently ruined it all for everyone. Because, from the looks of it, regulating alcohol consumption by minors ruins all the fun. Dominion did what they thought they had to do because we voiced how we felt about underage drinking. So don't blame Dominion for ensuring this event keeps on keeping on by regulating attendance. This is a BS Strawman argument, don't pay attention to it. This, like 98% of the posts on that Haven thread are logical fallacies and inconsistent with logic and common sense. If you don't know what a straw man is, here is a brief description. A straw man is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.Notice he said it was about minors not drinking? He purposfully said that to make us people arguing for the under 18 crowd look bad. It has no bearing on most of our arguments against it. He has either done this out of ignorance or has done it purposefully. If he has done this out of ignorance, he is ignorant and should not be listened to. If he has done this on purpose, he is a liar and a trickster, either way, don't listen to that statement. (Also, this statement applies to what most of Haven said in the thread I posted below)I'm sorry Iohn, but you little BS illogical debate club is not welcome in this thread and I'll call you on all of you, or anyone else with an ignorant position from Haven on their BS. Also, I want to extend my thanks to Haven for insulting me, and most of all my Dagorhir friends, who do, or have, partied hard at one point or another. Your group has really just insulted the majority of dagohir and like I said, me and the majority of those I call friends. Now I don't know about where you come from, but where I come from you don't trash other peoples friends without expecting some repercussions. Here is the thread that you realm decided t otrash the rest of us. I hope everyone reads it and understand just how illogical and ignorant most of it is. gatesofhaven.forumotion.net/general-discussion-f5/wotif-vi-after-chat-t546.htm
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Post by Iohn de Mar on Nov 28, 2009 21:19:55 GMT -5
Our boards are open. So feel free to read them. You can tell me I'm illogical till you burst a blood vessel. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what happened to one of our minors, underage drinking is illegal. Its not "kinda" illegal or "sorta not good". Its illegal. The argument was never about the alcohol itself, it was about its abuse. You being a chapter leader should understand this.
In case you don't remember what you signed, the chapter contract states that you will abide by all federal, state, county, and local laws. Last time I checked that was legal jargon for obey the law. So you can look for fallacies in my argument all you like. The law is pretty clear.
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Post by Ashalind Silverscale on Nov 28, 2009 21:27:56 GMT -5
I'd like to point out that the kid was not a minor. He was 18 and old enough to make his own decisions and control his own actions. He CHOSE to do something ILLEGAL and hopefully he learned his lesson about drinking at events. Don't get me wrong, he seems a good kid to me and I was there helping him sober up in Ravenwood camp. But my point is that nobody can take the blame for what happened except himself.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Nov 28, 2009 21:52:14 GMT -5
Our boards are open. So feel free to read them. You can tell me I'm illogical till you burst a blood vessel. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what happened to one of our minors, underage drinking is illegal. Its not "kinda" illegal or "sorta not good". Its illegal. The argument was never about the alcohol itself, it was about its abuse. You being a chapter leader should understand this. In case you don't remember what you signed, the chapter contract states that you will abide by all federal, state, county, and local laws. Last time I checked that was legal jargon for obey the law. So you can look for fallacies in my argument all you like. The law is pretty clear. Once again, I don't have to look, they are pretty apparent. You seem to be like someone I know who keeps repeating himself over and over, no matter what is said on the other side. So I will say this loud and clear. WE ARE MAD BECAUSE MINORS UNDER 18 HAVE FELT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE ACTIONS OF YOUR MEMBERS AND YOUR LITTLE CLUB NOT BEING ABLE TO OWN UP TO THE FACT THAT YOU CAN'T SUPERVISE YOUR OWN MEMBERS...SO YOU BLAME SOMEONE ELSE. CAN'T YOU READ WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SAYS, OR ARE YOU AND YOUR BUDDIES TO DAMN EGOCENTRIC AND CAN ONLY REPLY TO YOURSELVES BY SAYING THE SAME IGNORANT THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN? WE ARE ARGUING FOR THE UNDER 18 CROWD TO COME TO THE EVENT WITHOUT PARENTS AND JUST A TEMPORARY GUARDIAN, WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING UNDERAGE DRINKING IN ANY WAY. IF YOU KEEP LUMPING THE TWO TOGETHER YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND IRRECONCILABLE TO COMMON SENSE(NOT INTELLIGENT, LOGICAL CONVERSATION EVEN!). WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM? ARE YOU TOUCHED IN THE HEAD AND CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID? Jesus, if you can't say something new and add something decent to the conversation and give a logical presentation to you and yours' point of view STFU NOOB. Now, since we have a no flaming policy for flaming, I am going to go ban myself for a week, to set an example of myself. G'night
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Post by Sir Gump Fenris-Judge on Nov 28, 2009 23:04:08 GMT -5
I don't get on the boards much...ever, but I will put down my quick thoughts.
I am the one who called for the vote both to heavily enforce the underage drinking rules, and the under 18 restrictions. I will give the reasons very simply.
I am sure all realms have had many discussions on rules and ideas that keep getting put aside, both in dealing with safety and more restrictions for control. Many conversations are "after the fact" and involve alot of what if, and maybe we should have. I've seen my share and seen them again get pushed aside for the problems these fixes would themselves create. The topics that arose around the events activities were much the same and instead of maybes or we'll see I decided to call for putting our foot down hard. Another person put it in a good way, it is easier to become more lenient on rules as people follow them than to keep placing a minor change each time and only after each time a crisis arises.
I have no problem stating my opinion or stating the reasons behind them. I will also talk to anyone in length about my statements.
We have all had concerns at most practices, events, gatherings about what is safe/comfortable/enjoyable for the masses of Dagorhir. Events have come up where Dagorhir members (no matter what realm or age, a Dagorhir member is a Dagorhir member and to be thought of in all decisions from the newest barely age member to the longest running member...THEY ARE ALL IMPORTANT) have become uncomfortable and unsure of safety of the event. It is the responsibility of all running Dagorhir to take this seriously and work to understand/fix/improve the sport for future members.
I plan on fighting Dagorhir forever, may or may not, but I will do all I think is right for the sport in the proper way. We discuss, vote, and enforce rules. We also alter these rules as we learn more about the situations. We may very well reduce the harshness of these decisions, but for now they give a stable, no misunderstanding starting point.
Thank you for reading. My wife will surely tell me what the responses are.
Sir Gump Fenris-Judge Wolfcaller
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Post by Squire Pantar on Nov 29, 2009 10:12:03 GMT -5
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Post by Ser Mehran S'Disraeli on Nov 29, 2009 14:11:33 GMT -5
Hey, yeah, thanks Pantar. *adds her official APPROVED stamp to Pantar's last post* Quite enough here, thanks.
~M
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