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Post by Eldrin the Black on Nov 27, 2009 15:27:21 GMT -5
I just want to know if there is going to be an attempt at a compromise or if this is the final word. I'm just worried about the minors not coming, it may work for you if you live close by, by we will have a hard time (understatement) getting parents to come from 2 1/2 hours away to camp for the weekend. Most parents just can't/or won't.
There have been several good ideas put forth to solve this situation, someone should present them to the council, the medical waiver Whisper presented was particularly a good idea.
But this does need to be dealt with. Because as it stands you have 7-8 people who are pleased and 70-80 people who are very, very displeased. Mind you, not about under-age drinking being more policed (read that before you try flaming), but about the loss of our younger people. We all know that 95% of their parents won't come, don't we?
I also propose something else to help the under age drinking. Like Kurai said, often times it is a courtesy to share your drink, there should be more strict enforcement on the wrist bands, I'm not sure how, but this would protect us WILD, UNINTELLIGENT, HEATHENS, who are innocent of any wrong doing and just being polite and accidentally give boozes to a minor.
Also, if this persists, why not start kicking up dust about something... with a particular odor. Everyone is throwing around all this "It's illegal" BS and just ignoring something else that is quite obvious. Whether you THINK it should be ok and not harmful or not, if you ever use the "Let's follow the laws," excuse, you cannot pick and choose which laws you wants to follow guys! And I am saying that to anyone who sides with this but ignores the obvious fact of other illegal activities purposefully.
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Post by Percival on Nov 27, 2009 15:39:35 GMT -5
I hope one does not think asking questions about the fairness and effectiveness of new polices 6 months and a week or so before the event as standing in the way. I would agree if some one says somthing a week of an event after it had been posted for months that would be geting the way without being able offer any help for the problem, yes that is getting in the way.
The current option of asking 16 and 17 yr old bring a parent along (I am not realy worried about 15 and younger cuz thay can't fight at a DUS event right? and as Soulusar said this event is frist and foremost a combat event) COULD not effect some would be underage drinkers and exlulde some fighting age minors from attending who have done nothing wrong. Perhaps Mom or dad of Minor X thinks about it and shows up at troll pays $30 for both parent and minor lets kid X un pack the mini van and then leaves and come back Sunday moring. That kid X got in to the event and had nobody watching over him, and all the protenialy problems that we are facing are not at all prevented by said policy. On the other hand Ashland of RW had spoken about wanting the youngest of all those sisters. That yougest sister has done nothing wrong and i would care to guess id she thought about drinking she would have 2 sisters and Brother in Law and one greyskin URk to stop her at the VERY least. Now i am very much in favor of the alt gaurdian option. That would make me very happy. I do think that all 16 and 17 olds at this event should have some one atleast 21 looking after them. i would be behind that all together.
I have also offered other ideas in prevois posted and even offered to run and dry camp just for 16 and 17 yr old. So i do not think i am sompalining without being willing to help. Has ther been thought blind test on the hot spots serving alchol. Like they do at retail. send a 19 year old or yourn looking 21 yr olds through a beer line and see if they check for the right color bands. If thet do not. pull them aside along with the camp master or leader and either kick them out or scare them shitless.
I am happy to put my but where my mouth is too. I will work doudle CP shifts friday and Sat. shift. I do not that anyone who knows will say i am un willing to get my handle dirty. I want all of DUS to know this, I do not have to wear silver and black to feel ownship of these issuses. I am not going set back and complain but not help. I want to see thses event contunie and be sucessful. There comes to a point like Rag did where thiese events are more than just DUS hosted events, and all the realms and groups going to them have to help insure the ablitiy of the event we all enjoy.
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Post by Rhia the Incorrigible on Nov 29, 2009 12:18:34 GMT -5
I am completely astounded and cannot believe what I am hearing on all this. The largest midwest event has decided that they cannot handle a few people under 21 and making sure they don't drink and are now punishing the whole for what one drunk kid did from a realm that is now claiming they need harsher laws instead of doing what they should have done in the first place and looking out for their own? Haven, I don't know you guys, have no clue about you, but what I do know is when someone from my realm got drunk, someone from my unit got drunk, someone I know the NAME of got drunk, I took it upon myself to take care of them. I ALSO know that when someone was underaged from my group, I took responsibility if they drank. What this boils down to is you not wanting to soil your hands on taking care of what is yours in the first place and I can't believe the conceitedness and the utter gall you have to try to fall back on rules, laws, whatever to claim that what happened to that kid was in no way your own fault.
Also what I can't believe is no one thought to.. I don't know.. host an underage party?! How about that one. We used to have one at events and when everyone got to lazy to do it, this happens. Gump, I can honestly say before I left Dominion that the vast majority of the changes you had in mind, I could get on board with or at least understand, but deciding that because some kid got drunk and his group wants to blame you for it.. I can't say I've ever seen you back down from a defensive challenge, but it looks like it to me this time you did. Stand up. Someone realize how insane it is for those of us who are poorer in the midwest, who have to work for a living, and who have to work our arses off to support our families, to have to take a weekend off so your kid can get some physical excercise and hang out with his friends. Does no one take into account that at Rag they are enforcing this but Rag is 1) a week long event, and 2) on the east coast.
No one?
... This special interest party qualiftying is pissing me off. There is no reason the rest of us 200 people who attend Gates/War should be penalized for a group who cannot control their members and consists of..what.. 15 people? DON'T ATTEND, HAVEN, IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE WAY ITS RUN.
Thank you.
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Lady Krystal
Calendar Techie
Maroon is FTW!
Kushiel's Chosen
Posts: 664
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Post by Lady Krystal on Nov 29, 2009 12:41:40 GMT -5
Now i am very much in favor of the alt gaurdian option. That would make me very happy. I do think that all 16 and 17 olds at this event should have some one atleast 21 looking after them. i would be behind that all together. As previously stated, I'll be working to see if this is a viable option but I'm tied by the bureaucracy of it all and have to abide by the rules in front of me as well. This is not an issue I can make a sole decision on. It's been widespread that the issue isn't the 'bars' serving liquor, but the folks who are wandering with their own brews/concoctions and offering it to whomever passes by them. I know I made the faux pas of offering an underage person alcohol.. but they did the right thing - they informed me they were underage (both verbally and by showing me their wristband) and politely declined. It was the proper way to handle the situation and quite frankly I'm very proud of that person It's a shame not everyone can follow those very basic rules and just say 'No thank you'. I want you to know I'm incredibly grateful for your support, and I'm sure Orrin would appreciate help on the Courtesy Patrol scheduling. I know he's also planning on hosting a dry party (which may or may not be held in the grove.. it's still in discussion on where we'd hold it) and he'll need all the help he can get. As much as I want to delegate out tasks to other folks and realms, I don't want one person to feel swamped down with responsibility all of a sudden.
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Faraday
C-Box Moderator
Seamstress
Posts: 225
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Post by Faraday on Nov 29, 2009 12:50:06 GMT -5
Wow so many opinions, but this is a very good thing.
I have said so many times in the past that we would appreciate any and all help we can get. I will be running troll at this event, I guarantee there will be a big poster board with sign ups to do the various things that require a staff. Troll (handing out tags, errand runners etc), weapons check, heralds, courtesy patrol, and clean up (which always need more people). So there will be no more of this "well we didn't know" shenanigans.
I am sad to see this get implemented but I understand the need for it. We obviously need to do something since we are STILL having a discussion about it. I ts looking one of those "damned if we do, damned if we don't." Anything that we implement its not going to be strict enough and too strict for others. This is the conundrum that anyone running a big group/event runs into and with everyone's input hopefully we can find a happy medium.
We do enforce the underage drinking laws where we can. I sent people back to get their ids for the bar that I KNOW for a fact they are over 21 and was criticized for it. On the same hand, I have told people just to go get new bands (theirs fell/was taken off)from troll and have gotten a nasty attitude in response. *shrugs* Hopefully since everyone should know its coming it will be better from now on. If you see anything that is potential a hazard or illegal, find someone in courtesy patrol or someone in charge. Don't wait until months after the fact to speak up.
And enough with this "theres no underage party/dry camps" We tried to host one for YEARS and dropped it because no one came. If you want a dry camp make your camp dry. My camp is not, but I am not going to put a sign up to say so.
For those of us old enough to drink, carry your id. Thats the absolute way to show you are of age.
I propose that at the back of every waiver we have the following to sign as well as the general waivers:
- I am under 18 and have a (legal) guardian on site. I understand I am to follow all federal and local laws as well as laws of the land. I understand that if I violate these laws my guardian and I will be asked to leave. Signature: ___________ date: ______ Guardian name: ______________ Guardian signature: ___________
- I am over 18 and under 21. I understand I am to follow all federal and local laws as well as laws of the land. I understand that if I violate these laws I will be asked to leave. If I am unable safely do so, I understand that my emergency contact will be called. Signature: ___________ date: ______ Emergency contact (name and phone number): ________________
- I am over 21. I understand I am to follow all federal and local laws as well as laws of the land. I understand that if I violate these laws I will be asked to leave. If I am unable safely do so, I understand that my emergency contact will be called. Signature: ___________ date: ______ Emergency contact (name and phone number): ________________
Anyway I do appreciate everyone's thoughts in the matter. Happy to see that a good majority is what I personally believe as well.
Lady Faraday
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Post by Percival on Nov 29, 2009 12:57:34 GMT -5
Wow so many opinions, but this is a very good thing. . I ts looking one of those "damned if we do, damned if we don't." Anything that we implement its not going to be strict enough and too strict for others. This is the conundrum that anyone running a big group/event runs into and with everyone's input hopefully we can find a happy medium. so agreed
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Hawk
Soldier of Fortune
I am the leader of the unit Ordu dar Dorchadas
Posts: 40
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Post by Hawk on Nov 29, 2009 13:15:25 GMT -5
Ok most of you don't know me and I haven't attended a camp out since gates 1 but its an open board and I thought I would share my view on the situation as I see it. Now I agree with the drinking policy for these events minors shouldn't drink at an event but that doesn't mean I agree with the law thats a separate issue I personally believe if somebody is old enough to die for our country they are old enough to drink but as the law doesn't agree with me on that statement I'm back to saying I agree with the drinking and non drinking policies set up for this. As for the minor attendance I have no opinions on since as I stated I haven't been to a DUS camp out since gates 1 I have no idea how that is going to effect things but whats the worst thing that can happen it doesn't work and they try something else for the next event. this game is set up to be fun and safe (atleast as safe as a full contact game can be) and Dus is doing what they can to fix things for everybody, so they are going to try things and then try more things until they feel they got it as right as they can.
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Post by Tormir on Nov 29, 2009 13:38:56 GMT -5
I haven't posted on the boards in months. But I have a pretty strong opinion on this, not that others haven't said it, but I figure I have as much a right to make myself heard as the next guy.
1. Underage Drinking Smackdown - Good on you for it. Honestly. Do what you gotta do on that one, you won't see me arguing it.
2. Minors must have a legal guardian on site - I'd much rather that this were altered or done away with. Because frankly, it's crap. If I were 16 or 17, I wouldn't be able to go to your event. And my first event kept me in Dag. Every event since then, even though I haven't fought, has helped keep me here. My mom and stepdad have no problem with Dag, but I know for a fact that they wouldn't have came to an event with me. And for Haven, they've got an advantage that most of the Midwest doesn't: Distance. They've got parents that aren't very far from the event site at all(Based on their general location), so what have they got to lose on it? I just think that it's a shitty thing to cripple innocent kids, kids who may end up deciding that Dag isn't for them because they didn't get the thrill of fighting at an event. I honesty think that the council should take into consideration some of the alternatives that have been put on the table. And if you have to, run a Minors camp. At 18, a person is an adult, so they should be free to camp with their unit/realm. Not to say that 16-17 shouldn't allow for that, but if you're so concerned, run a minors camp. A minors camp, with a type of buddy system or something. I'm sure there are a billion ways to make it so they can attend, sans parents and enjoy themselves without the alcohol. It just seems to me that a lot of this is to save face in the end and I'm sorry if that pisses you off Dominion. Something happened at your event because someone who was of legal adult age fucked up. And if his friends weren't looking out for him, then it's on their head not yours. It's up to EVERYONE at the event to enforce the No Minors Drinking rule, not JUST Dominion. If you would look at it that way, perhaps you could lessen the need for a parent to attend. Because I'm 20, I'll be 21 by this event. So I'll be legal to drink. And I could get JUST as messed up as that kid. And I have little to no doubt that it would be called "a damn shame" or "a really stupid decision". But would you start making people from 16-25 bring mommy and daddy just because I fucked up? No. Because I was legal, an adult and I made a STUPID Muck'in CHOICE. And it's on my head. Just like all of this is on the kid who messed up's head. But Haven bitched and moaned enough to make you paranoid it seems and now Gates, War, hell any future Dominon event seems to me to be a little less minor friendly.
That's my 2 cp worth. Take it or leave it as you will Tormir Kaelson
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Post by Ser Mehran S'Disraeli on Nov 29, 2009 14:25:57 GMT -5
Wonderful discussion. ^^ I'm interested to see where it goes.
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M. Angus Maccius
Heroic Adventurer
Formerly and still in many ways Angus MacKay
Posts: 109
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Post by M. Angus Maccius on Nov 29, 2009 17:43:23 GMT -5
Tormir, since you'll be officially 21 at Gates, I invite you to come drink with the Iron Wolves and myself, we Wolves always look out for our own...
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Post by igitgreen on Nov 30, 2009 0:26:20 GMT -5
so ya at frist i was under the idea that the heaven kid was like 16 or something but when i found out he was 18 and that makes him a grown man by most laws and he can be held to his own actions such as taking a drink rather it be the light stuff or the hard stuff" im sorry if your not old enough and you know your relam is a dry relam and that it will make a problum then light or hard is a no no i agree tormir my frist event kept me comeing to dag and have been kepping me in dag for a long time since i was 16 and im now 22 i have never had booze forced apon me and ive been in mordor every event ive been to and have always been looked out for cause of my own drinking at the time of the drinking and the next morning wolf or some one there has always asked hey igit you doing ok or need some water or any number of other things i was there when got his booze i sall noone force this kid into the camp or make him drink but i did see kulprit nice enough to carry his butt back to his camp so the whole if he had not found a dry camp whine is dead cause he was took to a safe place and tooken care of by more then one sober person and go figure not ppl from his realm... I stand at this point i would have never got to go to a dag event if these rules have been place cause i was a ward of myself state appointed wich means no mommy and i know other kids like that and kids who get the lil money from mom and dad that they cant spare to go to gates and war if we ban ppl 17,16,15,14 from coming i think that i will find a new event to go to as well so that dag some way some where can still grow and move on past little f ups
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Post by turrinbarturrin on Nov 30, 2009 1:18:25 GMT -5
I have spoke very little on this issue that happened with one of my dear friends at the last event. I was angry at what happened at the last event and that is why I spoke little about it. Every account I read differs and he cant remember clearly so I’m dropping it. It seems that this and other things brought up by my realm are causing change in a bad kinda way. What happened could have been dealt with better by haven leadership to be sure. We need to learn from it and move on. I am sick petty fighting and complaining. Somewhere along the line people went from constructive critics to angry judges. Its been said a lot that great ideas and willingness to help is how perceived/real problems will get better over time. I am not in favor of the current rule changes. In some ways they could help but overall people perceive them to cause greater problems for us. I think we did wrong here and need to take a step back. I LOVED TO FIGHT and I LOVED TO CAMP as a MINOR . Being safe was a big deal but that will never be completely true its just the nature of game we play ( Its for everyone). On that note I hope it stays open for everyone lawful and evil alike both minor and adult. The only real way we will make events safer is on an individual basis. I wish seen this long before but I do now and plan on doing my share. People’s ability to play has been harmed this is tragic I sincerely apologize for my lack of action and not seeing the escalation or gravity. I pray we all come out of this better Dag folk. Shoot me a message about this if you like. For what its worth -Turrin
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Rudric
Nooblet
Kattawa!
Posts: 16
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Post by Rudric on Nov 30, 2009 3:34:29 GMT -5
I share the same sentiments mostly. Underage drinking= bad. Have to have a parent=bad My stepdad(who was guardian at 15-16) laughed at my sword and thinks dag is retarded. He definitely would not have come to our pansy Stinkin' 'Umie Gitz! event. My mom might have. My slew of high school guardians probably wouldn't be able to. That rule, is bull. This is just a ridiculous knee jerk reaction because of Haven throwing a fit(read "I can come up with more creative words like complaining that the b word") and throwing blame on everyone but themselves. Shouldn't it go, he who is without sin cast the first stone? jerks.
An alternative should be found, yes, and soon. Waivers, alt-guardians, patrols, all sounds better than banning kids who can't get their parents to go. I'm new to all this, but it doesn't sound right. If I had more stake in this I would actually consider boycotting the event.
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Post by Squash on Nov 30, 2009 11:37:59 GMT -5
I feel I ought to weigh in on this even though I have no dog in this fight. I'm 21, my unit is all over 21, I don't have any friends who are minors that I'm bringing. With that said I think additional rules will bring about little good, and possible a good deal of harm.
First of all I think this rule does little to address the actual issue. Which is that those under 21 are being supplied alcohol by those who are over 21. So, having a parent required will certainly eliminate most of the underage drinking of 15-17 year olds(probably through a severe drop in the numbers of attendance) it will do nothing to address the source of the issue (people breaking the law by providing alcohol to minors.) It will not address the 18-20 crowd, who are likely a greater source of issue in the first place (considering the person who brought about this issue fits in that age range.)
In essence, you've created an additional rule that will do little good in order to cover up the lack of enforcement of an actual law i.e. suppling alcohol to minors.
The answer seems rather clear to me. Enforce current state and federal law. Make it clear to everyone that these laws are expected to be followed, and that they will be enforced.
Enforcing them means if a CP comes across a minor in possession, their emergency contact is called and they are kicked out. If an adult is caught suppling alcohol to a minor, whether at a party, at the bar, or in their camp. They and the minor are kicked out.
Additional rules make no sense when the law has already provided sufficient regulation on this very issue. All this will do is discriminate against a minority within dagorhir due to someone not even apart of that group behaving incorrectly.
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Odin
Nooblet
Posts: 6
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Post by Odin on Nov 30, 2009 15:46:40 GMT -5
I am from Haven and I first off must applaud my logic buddy Eldrin the black for your reasoning.
I do not speak for all Haven, just for me in what i say:
1. "That kid at war" was 18 and i do not blame any realm, group, or person for his condition. In fact I would like to thank those who looked after him since he got drunk on thursday night, and Haven as a realm didn't officially arrive until friday night (btw thanks for staying up so late to register us). I don't like what happened to him, and on our boards i said some things i didn't mean out of anger, and for any offence that cause i deeply apologize.
2. I do not support requiring parents of minors to come, and i never have. That will only hurt us.
3. "The blow up doll" - she was clothed, and was not being presented in a sexual manner. I think it was a good, cheap substitute for a life size person, especially in a rough battle. so no big deal really
Lastly, I am sorry that these events unfolded like they did. And I hope we can find a compromise with the parent/minor issue. For me or any Havener to blame others for the ways in which our realm failed, or was unable to act is not fair, deserved, or reasonable.
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