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Post by Eldrin the Black on Jan 19, 2010 10:00:53 GMT -5
Missouri has a lot of Voting power and I say we just say how we feel here about it. The proposal on the national boards basically says that leather armor will no longer protect against single green. Here is the thread; www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=17458.0I myself and against this for a few reasons, mainly though because it introduces 2 armor types to our game and I much prefer the simple K.I.S.S. rules of all armor is the same. Might be good for some people, but I really dislike it, and yes I do wear leather armor. But if it passed I'd likely just put some metal over my grieves, which is no problem at all. So just say how you feel! I think we also should ask how our individual units/realms feel so that when our reps go to war council they know how to vote.
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Post by azgarehta on Jan 19, 2010 11:53:56 GMT -5
SPEARMEN REJOICE!
Anyway, I'd rather use the Angmarth simplicity rules: 48"+ is all red, stabs can't break shields. This turns single greens over 48" into blue strikes. First, it makes spears different from daggers with regards to armor, and it still gives armor the same 'extra hit' rule, only now armor can't ignore single 'green' from spears or reds. I think this is a good medium to the single green goes through armor.
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Lady Krystal
Calendar Techie
Maroon is FTW!
Kushiel's Chosen
Posts: 664
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Post by Lady Krystal on Jan 19, 2010 12:10:28 GMT -5
In a perfect world, I'm going to have a set of all three armor classifications. Leather, Chain, and Plate. However as it stands now, I only have my chain I think part of the problem is there's a gross difference between hardened leather (be it water hardened or wax hardened) and untreated leather that feels like someone sewed together too many pairs of chaps. While I agree that single green through a soft leather composite type thing like that is an understandable 'nerf' it's unfair for people who've got really nice, hardened leather armor that would well and truly hold up to a real blow.
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Post by azgarehta on Jan 19, 2010 12:43:13 GMT -5
Yeah, we've been talking about this in the C-Box. I'm in favor of leaving the rule as is. I fight in Arnor and its one of the heaviest armored realms in existence, probably 90% armored on most days. As a spearman there, its tough as hell b/c I have to double green everything, but in the same way, those Knights are running around in 40 lbs of chainmail and some of those other guys have hardened leather Cuirasses and things. There's definitely a difference between the leather and metal, but I'd be more in favor of buffing metal.
Odd says we should have metal armor (or plate specifically) treat double green and red as blue. I like that idea.
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Whisper MoonSon
Heroic Adventurer
Just another lunatic - that's me.
Posts: 126
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Post by Whisper MoonSon on Jan 19, 2010 15:23:39 GMT -5
I'm all for it. But then, I'd be all for getting rid of leather armor entirely. Maybe allow hardened leather, because it's actually worth something as protection.
Regarding anything more than 2-tier armor system: No. Just no. Been there. There's a reason there's only one level of armor in Dagorhir. Way back in the earliest days, there were three tiers of armor: leather, maille, and plate. It was too confusing, so leather was ditched because it offers no real-life protection, and maille and plate were lumped together as armor because they do offer real-life protection. The reintroduction of leather armor some few years ago broke the balance, in my opinion. Leather isn't armor. But since we're stuck with leather, I have no problem nerfing it and going to a 2-tier system.
The proposal has my vote in favor. However, there is one alternative I'd like better: Keep the single tier system, but require all leather armor to be hardened. If it's water hardened, oil/wax hardened, or (best of all!) lacquered rawhide that meets the thickness requirement in a single layer, it's armor. Otherwise, it's just garb.
I also like it because it buffs greens. The current armor rules are pretty weird, being better protection against piercing than cutting hits. Nerfing leather would encourage greens, and I do like my stabbing!
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deamos
Heroic Adventurer
Posts: 132
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Post by deamos on Jan 21, 2010 11:09:17 GMT -5
Why not just make it to where a single handed stab does one point of damage.
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Post by jackyl on Jan 23, 2010 0:05:13 GMT -5
i believe that since armor in general costs way more than a shield {which no green damage matters] if someone has armor they should have a shield by then.....if said person breakes anothers defence and hits with a stabby i believe i should have to take the hit...... aka get better shieldwork and dont just rely on armor
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Post by jackyl on Jan 23, 2010 0:14:36 GMT -5
sorry if i'm crude
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arc
Soldier of Fortune
Posts: 44
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Post by arc on Jan 23, 2010 11:58:19 GMT -5
to be acurate we would proubably have to make 4 differnt armor types: soft leather, chainmail, hard leather, and plate with their own rules for their strengths and weekness preferably not a stone skin type proubably would have to change ultra light weapons in to a differnt catagory from blue for this to work. on one side it would be more acurate and preserve the realism of the game but on the flip side it may over complacate the game and we all know how much over complacating pisses people off.
p.s. im not sure what would be done with composite and brigandine armor.
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vulcan
Soldier of Fortune
the foolish mortal
Posts: 66
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Post by vulcan on Jan 23, 2010 15:29:57 GMT -5
You can't get too complicated with this otherwise you start getting people aggrivated. If you make multiple armor grades you have to start marking armor by grade and having people grade the armor it just gets too complicated my vote is to use the kiss method and save the hassle plus you will have a good number of fighters so used to the current rules that they will still use them accidently for a lengthy time after the change if the change goes through we need to be understanding of this for a while after and not get pissed if someone makes a mistake.
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Whisper MoonSon
Heroic Adventurer
Just another lunatic - that's me.
Posts: 126
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Post by Whisper MoonSon on Jan 23, 2010 15:35:29 GMT -5
As someone who was around in the early days, when javelins had no particular color, yellow weapons were short cutters that did 1/2 blue damage, and the three classes of armor were leather, maille, and plate, I assure you that complex armor and hit-taking rules are a hassle. They're not a game-breaker, but the game ran a lot smoother and became a bit more fun when maille and plate were consolidated as "armor" and leather was dropped entirely. I still kind of miss the old yellow weapons, though. And then they went and made leather legal as armor again a few years ago, and that threw off the balance (at least IMO). We're stuck with the stuff, now, but nerfing it a bit and/or stiffening the requirements for leather armor should help.
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Post by jackyl on Jan 23, 2010 23:25:14 GMT -5
i dont recommend a difference between soft and hard leather because it looks exactly the same that could be a cheater loophole.... all one has to say is i tried hardening the leather myself and poof semisoft leather counts as hardened
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Post by Rehdwulf on Jan 27, 2010 0:14:29 GMT -5
I think that if the leather is stiff enough that it doesn't seem to move much even without straps then it's close enough. I mean we're not actually trying to protect people from actual stabs. we just want to make sure that if they're using it as stiff, thick( I know, giggidy) leather then they must suffer the discomfort. and I for one like the leather but come on. it DOES need to be realistic.
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nwo
Soldier of Fortune
Posts: 96
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Post by nwo on Jan 30, 2010 15:22:43 GMT -5
I think the rule proposal is a good compromise. Ideally, I'd like to see a hit is a hit is a hit. That would truely be KISS, but, as it is a very ingrained concept (for whatever reason), this is a good middle ground.
The stab is the most under-utalized aspect of Dag and also one of the most effective oddly enough (with the obvious exception of when facing armor). Armor having a magical ability to ignore a stab is akin to barn doors and flails. The rule will go some distance towards removing crutches and upping the game. This is a very good progressive movement forward. I think another likely residual effect will be a loosening of the ridiculous stab tip construction rules as this becomes a more pronounced technique. Arnor has relaxed construction rules as do some other places now, and it has worked quite nicely and to the benefit of the skill level progression of the average fighter.
Will
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