Alo Taleweaver
Heroic Adventurer
Hebrew Hammer
Monk, not Jedi
Posts: 220
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Leaning
Oct 27, 2007 20:54:43 GMT -5
Post by Alo Taleweaver on Oct 27, 2007 20:54:43 GMT -5
Buster, you and I have talked beifly before about faith, but I never realized that we shared so many ideas and convictions. I've not been punched in the face, but there are worse things that can be done to a person in a small town (where reputation means so much).
You asked "What is morality?" The question isn't as simple as it seems. The anwser isn't simple either.
If you wrong me, I may forvige you. Grace transcends this and gives forgiveness despite lack of renuciation. One has only to accept the gift. Has this beautifull idea been raped? Yes. The church as a whole has done many abobinations. Grace still forvives ANY who ask. I, as a beliver must dispense this to all who ask. We all need it from time to time. I cannot rectify the deeds of others. I can only anwser for my deeds.
Morality, as I understand it, is giving grace without hesitation, weaning my need for it over time, and helping others to do the same.
Is the church perfect? No. Are christians the most qualified to despense grace? No and no. A thousand "no"s. I , unqualified to dispense grace, can reconise my need for it and help others to recive it, despite the knowlage that it, and I, will be taken advantage of. That is all I can do. I hope that my actions help others, and I mourn the actions of others in the name of God.
I cannot seperate my self from this lifestyle. Thus, I worship Hashem, the Ruach HaKodesh, and the phsyical incarnation who preformed the ritual to make grace free to all.
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Leaning
Oct 28, 2007 10:47:10 GMT -5
Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 28, 2007 10:47:10 GMT -5
I was really gonna jump into this but I decided it's not worth my time. But I will say a few things.
I'm a Druid. I have studied Druidism so much it runs out of my ears. I have books about it that are so far out of print they are about to dissipate into thin air. Druid beliefs are exactly like nature, simple and infinitely complex. My beliefs are in this order;
1.God is the Supreme.God is the greatest of all things and of which there can be nothing greater. 2.Wisdom-Guides our life and our service to God, ourselves and our brothers and sisters(i.e. everyone.) 3.Nature-Nature is our mother, the womb for our soul. She nourishes us until we pass on to higher cycles of existence. We should try to understand her ways and respect her.
Now that being said I have found no other religion that works so well. It can be simple or complex as needed. The tenets of wisdom are triads(3's) that guide and help you. It teaches that you should understand nature(Science). God(faith) Wisdom(Pragmatic Knowledge) Nature(Science). An intelligent persons religion. It is part f my faith to learn and grow in all of these areas.For some reason I believe Science and spiritualism are the same thing, we just don't have formulas and equations for them yet but they are governed by rules, just like observable nature.
Just to show what I believe. It is really irrelevant though.
I love God in my puerile, weak manner, but it is all I have. I love Christ as well, he is the Savior of my soul. The Christian view of God is perfect for what I believe. In fact, you could Label me a Christian. I don't much associate with the organized bunch though. I will tout Christ as being the greatest.
When people bash something I get annoyed. When people aren't adequately informed I get annoyed. When people talk for their own good and don't want to hear it annoys me.
Most Christians and Pagans annoy me. At least Christians are up front about their closed mindedness. Pagans close their minds off and go around preaching how damned open-minded they are! They'll tell me all about their star charts and Tarot cards but the minute I say the word Christ or the bible its closed off city. They may pretend to listen but most of the time they are just waiting for their turn to speak.
The Bible is the greatest book ever written. Problem! Everyone whines about how it's been re-written and translated. Well I hate to tell you the bible came from an un-flawed text that we still ahve access to. I've studied what I call the "real" Bible since I was small. It requires time and effort which most people(Chritians and Pagans) aren't willing to put in. Without the effort all these people still can run a round and talk like their experts on everything! That makes me mad, I call it talking out your a$$. The Christian are for this and the pagans are like that! Grrr.
My beliefs require me to expand my mind, my single most important tenet is never even touched. God just is. I am the I am. I just am. Nothing breaks or damages that in any way.My wisdom, knowledge, science and spirituality may change but God never falters or wavers.
English is a poor language. This is why I have been stiding ancient greek and hebrew since I was 10. In order to know what the bible really says you must. The King James isn't to bad but it is not specific enough. I'm not saying it's flawed, I'm saying English is a language of ambiguities.
Witesh just for you I have a few things to say.
The "burnings" can't really be equated to God. Do you think my god liked that? I really don't, I think the people that did it felt the pull on there conscious when they witnessed it or when they perpetrated such a vile act. If they didn't fell guilt then they were probably misguided and wicked. When one uses logic one can see this has little to do with religion and more to do with psychology. I call it Esprit de stupid and your yourself are probably guilty of it. Have you ever done something because everyone else was? Well put your mind into those small closed minded communities and see how multiplied your Esprit de stupid can get. I'm guilty of Esprit de stupid myself! I think most everyone is, it is a basic tenet of human psychology.
Exodus 22:18? Are we suddenly talking about Jews? I thought we were talking about Christians? Do you know the difference? Do you know how many Jewish laws there are? Do you care to learn or are you just looking for a way to bash Christians? Do you know what the Christian laws are? If so you probably know or have a grasp of the greek and aramaic used at the time!
Exodus 22:18-I have stuff to do today so I'll tell you what that really means later, if of course you care to listen to the truth of a scripture.If you would like to keep using it as a means to justify your faith and bash another's then I'll shut up!
Just so you know my soul is light and free. I feel love and fulfillment in the pursuit of my beliefs and my God. I feel safe and secure in the perfection of the universe, my father who loves me made it. The thought of dying makes me smile because then I will be as I am meant to be, pure me, so to speak.
Can any of you say the say?
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Greybeard
Nooblet
The perminant identity informs the temprary ones
Posts: 23
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Leaning
Oct 28, 2007 16:16:44 GMT -5
Post by Greybeard on Oct 28, 2007 16:16:44 GMT -5
Eldrin: That was worth reading. I can agree with so much of it. So you are a Druid and a Christian? Wow… sometime we have got to get together around a campfire. I will be at the Olympics (Indianapolis) this spring. And at Rag, of course. That is a conversation for a face to face. Fascinating. I can completely agree with your (3) beliefs, but I would want to tweak or redefine the terms, naturally, in order to fit my confession of faith. But there is grounds for much agreement.
There is ONE thing I would like to pick-up on for the sake of conversation… and that is the ‘Triad’ thing, where you say (twice) that Nature is (in some way you do not define) equitable to science. Since MOST would try to have these in opposition to each other-- and classically they are in opposition, since romanticism and empiricism tend to be mutually exclusive. Now, for myself I see a way of holding them in tension and striving to be comfortable with the paradox… but I see no way of actually blending them without that they become something other than either nature or science. There are of course, “Natural Sciences” but this is only to apply empiricism to the study of the physical world. As a Druid, I would assume that you believe that behind this physical world there is a spiritual one that no empiricist worth his salt would acknowledge in their application. Personally I don’t see how you can equate nature to science. Your Triad then looks like this… Science, Faith, and Knowledge… pragmatic knowledge at that. Now, to me this Triad of yours begins to look suspiciously like Classic Greek Philosophy… Which counter to Descartes I arrange thusly… Ontology (Being) Epistemology (Knowing) , Ethics (doing). However your Triad seems to lack a proper Ontology. ‘nature’ would fit… but not ‘science’, since empiricism has more in common with Epistemology (wisdom?) at least from my point of view.
Now then for another topic of discussion, I agree that Christians, or anyone with uninformed opinions can be annoying… but I do think there is a time to be closed minded. Perhaps just not first thing out of the box. But once you have reached an informed opinion, I see no reason to remain open minded. I do, see a reason for being willing to listen, if not persuaded, since it helps us be civil and respectful of people. I believe it was Bishop Francis Sheen who said that “Tolerance is to be extended to people, but not necessarily to their ideas.” I’m not RC but I like the sentiment and I attempt to practice it.
Now then… as to English being a poor language. I must disagree. All language have their strengths and weaknesses. I just attended a seminar where the speaker was talking about the body and soul as being one integrated unit. “--The Hebrew gets it right in the use of nephish… --the Greek gets it wrong in the use of pneuma.” What a load of crap! The two languages are just doing different things… yes. In one sense the body and soul are one integrated unit. Now then I believe at the resurrection we are not simply disembodied spirits, but body and soul together once more…. But the Greek also allows us to speak concisely about the fact that there is a spiritual and physical world… that is also true. So one language is not “better” and another is not “worse” they simply do the same things a bit differently. Now true it takes a lot of words to say things in English… but because of that English can say things with a great deal of precision. I would argue that is one of the strengths of English is that it makes a great scientific and legal because it can be so exacting. Hebrew does not have that as a strength… but it has other value as a language of Great poetry. It can say much in few words. It is a frugal language on the tongue. But you are right when you say that in order to exegete the scriptures they must be read from the original languages. And you are most correct when you say we have reliable documents to translate from. I will admit that a good course on Text criticism will rattle your faith… but when you get past that, you will find that the differences in the documents, especially the New Testament documents are remarkably subtle and nothing like in opposition to eachother. (With the exception of the Gnostic Letters, which are NOT canonical and do NOT belong in the scriptures no matter how much the “Rewriting” History Channel wants to add them back in.)
My soul is also light and free and peaceful, and I can say that confidently, without lying to you or myself.
GB
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Leaning
Oct 29, 2007 17:18:10 GMT -5
Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 29, 2007 17:18:10 GMT -5
Well said Greybeard! I'll bet we'd have a good discussion.
English is a great language at times, I think my own lack or articulateness caused a slight misunderstanding. When they try yo translate the bible a lot to the time they only used one word to explain a Hebrew word that really should have taken 10 English words to fully explain. In translating Hebrew to English you can't go for a word to word translation, it just doesn't work out well.
As far as the Science/Nature/Spiritual thing goes, I just think that way. I don't think that Spiritual matters have to be such a secret thing, most just lack the ability to comprehend. Everything has a rule and a law to govern it so does spirituality. We just don't comprehend the laws set forth by God for that particular part of Nature Science; if one could understand those laws there would be a "Science" to it.
How brilliant is God? I don't think God needs to touch the earth or his follows, his creation is in perfect harmony to a degree that we could never understand; if your prayer was answered or not might be because you actually knelt to pray and the subtle movement of the atoms in the air caused a chain reaction that the end result was what you asked for! Sounds far fetched but God is truly that amazing, butterfly effect and all that.
As far as science goes here is a flow chart my brother came up with while he was in collage, he got sick of his professors saying his faith in God was based off of ignorance.
Flow Chart
All things we know in the universe require 'SOMETHING' to exist. Everything we observe is 'dependent' For example the sun (or other stars) do not exist without a fusion nuclear reaction. Furthermore when their supply runs out of material to perform this reaction they no longer exist.=> There had to originally be some force which did not require ANYTHING to exist, or is completly independent. Essientially there is some force in the universe that was able to 'create' material from 'nothing'. 2.) Newton's second law of motion states(one of them anyway), states that, "An object remains in it's given state of motion unless acted on by an outside force." Nowhere in the known universe have we observed where this could be different. Hence it is a LAW. So that means that even if matter did exist at the begining of the universe it required some sort of 'push' to obtain a given state of motion. Otherwise matter was at rest, which meant even the quote/unquote Big Bang could not have occured without that first 'push'. Furthermore, that requires for someone to belive that matter just 'existed'. This would require something called 'faith'. Since nothing in the universe is wholly independent it would lead us to believe that there is a force that is independent, and can exist outside the known universe which was able to form the universe from nothingness. This line of reaoning requires MUCH less 'faith' than belivening that 1.)originally matter just 'existed'. 2.) This matter gained it's own state of motion with no 'outside' force acting on it. 3.)All matter is dependent upon some other matter, or process which converts one matter to another(i.e. chemical or nuclear reaction), and this matter which is now 'dependent' was originally 'independent'? Once again this requires 'faith'...
So the most of the "Scientists" are the ones that have ignorant faith!
May the All-Father Bless all your paths!
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Leaning
Oct 29, 2007 17:20:08 GMT -5
Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 29, 2007 17:20:08 GMT -5
and thank you!!!! The Gnostic letters so do not belong in the new testament!!! I thought I was the only one that believed that!!! HA!
Bless you brother!
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Leaning
Oct 30, 2007 7:41:58 GMT -5
Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 30, 2007 7:41:58 GMT -5
*Goes back to leaning on wall.
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Leaning
Oct 30, 2007 10:48:30 GMT -5
Post by rhia on Oct 30, 2007 10:48:30 GMT -5
I told you guys a diversionary tactic is the way to go.
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Leaning
Oct 30, 2007 15:30:49 GMT -5
Post by Eldrin the Black on Oct 30, 2007 15:30:49 GMT -5
At least everyone quit complaining about Shadus. ;D
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Greybeard
Nooblet
The perminant identity informs the temprary ones
Posts: 23
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Leaning
Oct 31, 2007 0:03:28 GMT -5
Post by Greybeard on Oct 31, 2007 0:03:28 GMT -5
Ah... you don't need diversions, Rhia, not if you are willing to HAVE the argument... I mean... the conversation..................
Wife: "Oh will you two PLEASE stop your arguing!" Hubby: "We are not arguing, we are having a conversation." Wife: "Well, it sounds like an argument to me." Hubby: "Well it's not. We're still friends. Isn't that right friend?" Friend: "Yes, that's right. We're still friends. Even if you are an ignorant one." Hubby: "See, Punkin? If you don't love the uninformed, who will?"
Eldrin. Did you see the movie "The Matrix"? Do you remember the 'Marovigian'? His argument is from 'Causality' too. Now, look... you play Dagorhir... there MUST be a 'romantic' under all that empiricism somewhere? No? I too find value in Aristotle's metaphysics (The unmoved, first mover, just to let you know that your brother, while wise indeed, did infact borrow his flow chart from the foundations of Western Culture... likely the very thing that would piss off his college professors most. Good for him ;D ) But it does have it's limitations. And while this good universe we live in does indeed turn with a marvolous degree of perfection, the Law's of nature do not prohibit a degree of Chaos. We actually NEED Chaos, (Which is the main poin that the "orical" tried to make with the "Architect" in Matrix II and III) But we can see that in such complex systems as --fluid dynamics-- choas reins surpreem. There is a level where even Mathmatics defies measurable observation and predetermination.... where there exists divine freedom. We even have examples where God will break His own "natural" laws (The Sun standing still in the sky... Ax heads floating... Parting of seas... and such like) when it suits His purpose to do so. And where God, for what ever reason of His own, entered into this world to dispence GRACE to a people who did not, do not and cannot, obey the "Natural Laws". (I might be tempted to equate chaos with sin... I don't know... probably)
Anyway, there are indeed Mysteries that defy the limits of human wisdom... for example the "injustice of "Bad things" happing to "good" people... Truely, if the world were ordered... there would be observable justice and self-correcting behaviors. There are some of the time... but not ALL of the time. True... exceptions "prove the rule"... prove that there IS a rule... but exceptions also prove that "rules are made to be broken. or at least bent"
Personally, I'm not all that uncomfortable living in a world were there are some paradoxes. This is why I tend to be a mystic, rather than a rationalist or a supernaturalist. Mysticism is where the Ordinary world and the Extrodiary world meet. You can call that tension between the physical world and metaphysicl world, or the temporal world and the eternal world, or the rational world and the irrational world (just as there are irrational numbers by the way) but while we appear to live in ONE, I think we really live, (on occation at least) in BOTH.
GB
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Leaning
Oct 31, 2007 7:26:46 GMT -5
Post by rhia on Oct 31, 2007 7:26:46 GMT -5
My personal opinion on it is I don't "argue" or "conversate" on religion as its not a topic that seems to make friends most the time. Every once in a while you will, but it creates just as many, if not more enemies, so screw it. I went to a play yesterday. www.scarethehelloutofyou.com/Interesting-ish(the demons looked like the Orcs.. I swore Greminkull was in there), but incredibly guilt ridden. And afterwards, the pastor called out people, telling them to be saved and that we were all going to hell(I thought it would be more interesting. ) It was a play that started off great. A letter from hell to a guy who was christian, but never told his friend, so his friend went to hell. Then it ends up showing this guy get shot and they brought up like 10 different types of sinners(a gangbanger, a righteous but not christian person, a racist, a pagan, a Rainbows and Unicorns man, a guy who beat his wife, a prostitute, etc.) And all of them got drug off to hell and one guy got saved. Then they sent Satan to hell and blah blah blah. All in all, I felt like I should've been in a tent at a revival. Afterwards, the pastor called everyone up who wanted to be saved. I, being slightly tiffed about the people who were sent to hell, did not join. Me and like 10 other people out of 300. He guilted everyone else into walking up that hadn't at first, then points ME out for not being in his group of saved and I proceeded to tell him I didn't agree with his philosophy, but feel free to pray or do whatever you'd like. I respect other viewpoints. I then get glares and looks of daggers shooting into me from the rest of the assembled. I thought "way to be forgiving and preach his word..." I just thought I would share this with everyone.. It made me think a lot, and I promise you I will never waste my time in that church again after that play
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Greybeard
Nooblet
The perminant identity informs the temprary ones
Posts: 23
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Leaning
Oct 31, 2007 23:55:55 GMT -5
Post by Greybeard on Oct 31, 2007 23:55:55 GMT -5
Oh my! Rhia... I would have loved to be sitting next to you.... we would have had so much fun. I don't put up with that kind of shenanigans... from a pastor of all people... someone who OUGHT to KNOW better. I checked out the link... (Oh please spare me!) That is NOT Christianity Rhai... (Seriously it's not) You hit the nail on the head... it's a guilt trip. And if I didn't just get up and walk out on it, I would have loved to deconstruct the pastor who called you out and shown him how little He knows about the faith he is preaching. You should be tiffed. It was a grand waste of your time. When I see stuff like that it just makes it so much harder to have people believe you when you say, "That's not what I believe teach and confess." It's an embarrassment. You will not hear me present my faith in that way... no way. Now as to having or not having the 'conversations'. I do understand. It IS a bit like walking in a mine field. And so I think if one is going to have the conversation, one must walk gently and lightly. And so I try to do.... Not STOMP the HELL out of IT! (What foolishness, I feel so sorry you had to go through that)
GB
Oh, by the way... I'm also directing a play... at the High school.... we're are doing DRACULA... I wonder what that pastor would say to me?
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Post by rhia on Nov 1, 2007 7:10:33 GMT -5
Doesn't that play look great? *laughs* It was the mostcontrived push for members I've ever heard of.
Like I say, I'm not all for bashing other's religions(unless you're Fred Phelps), but that is the stupidest thing I have ever had the displeasure of sitting through. I only did so out of respect to my friend who brought me along in case he was still interested in it. Afterwards, he told me he wanted to leave after 3 people were "judged" and sent to hell... That was a wasted 5 dollars except telling the Pastor I didn't agree with him.
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Post by Eldrin the Black on Nov 1, 2007 8:06:40 GMT -5
It hurts me to see such judgmental people. I tell you what though I read something in an Ayn Rand book that made more sense about Jesus and Christianity in truth comparative to what many tout as truth. The quote is from the book Atlas shrugged and goes;
"You have been using fear as your weapon and have been bringing death to man as his punishment for rejecting your morality. We offer him life as his reward for accepting ours."
Amen, that is how I feel. I don't care what anyone believes, it is never my place to say anyone will suffer eternal torment for not having my own beliefs. It is my place to tell men the love and peace in my heart and the confidence I have in my own God.
At one point in my life I questioned God because I wondered if I believed in God because it was drilled into my head from a young age. The truth that is in my heart, however, is so much deeper then any man could plant that I know better.
Peace be unto you!
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Post by Ilyia Wyst Shadowsbane on Mar 4, 2008 2:59:26 GMT -5
"Beauty creates ugliness, chaos creates law, love creates hate. These are very basic premises of philosophical reason."
Beauty does not CREATE ugliness so much as ugliness is merely the term for a lack of beauty. There is no law stating that where there is beauty there must always be ugliness. This is often found to be true but it is not necessarily always so. For example, if you believe that God is good and beautiful then it does not also mean that by necessity God is also bad and ugly or is the creator of such. This is a contradiction of terms. The ugly comes from an abuse of a good given to us. There is a difference between the good itself and the abuse of that good. A more accurate term would be, "Where there is good, ugly can often be found".
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Alo Taleweaver
Heroic Adventurer
Hebrew Hammer
Monk, not Jedi
Posts: 220
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Leaning
Mar 4, 2008 20:39:19 GMT -5
Post by Alo Taleweaver on Mar 4, 2008 20:39:19 GMT -5
Oooh. Great Paladin quote. Can I steal it?
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